Author Topic: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth  (Read 102517 times)

Offline Savini

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23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« on: January 11, 2010, 06:48:16 PM »
I tried both MKVs as well as M2TS files with 24p output on my Panasonic Plasma. The picture is smooth and it is definately an improvement ober 1080p 60Hz. BUT: From time to time there seems to be a frame drop or something since the pictures hangs or skips. Since I don't have this problem when watching BDs it is a problem with the Mede8er. When I watch 1080p 60Hz such minor skips/hangs are undetectable because of the 3:2 pulldown judder.

Offline Insomniac

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 05:45:10 PM »
Hi Savini,

Please provide your hardware details as per the link in my signature when requesting support.
You are assuming that one automatically knows what your setup consists of.
Questions? Please check the Mede8er Beginners Guide.

For technical assistance, please take note of the Technical support guidelines.

Ensure too that you are using the latest firmware when requesting support.

Offline tachita

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 09:33:36 PM »
from what location did you play those files? network, hdd, usb, wifi?

Offline Monkeyface66

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 10:12:40 PM »

From time to time there seems to be a frame drop or something since the pictures hangs or skips.

After reading this it seems like the Mede8er HAS the SAME BUG like the other realtek players after all...


"BUG: 23,976 fps files are played back with 24.000 Hz instead of 23.976 Hz."
The result is 1 FRAMEDROP after every ~ 38 seconds of the movie.


Hi Monkeyface66

Just got confirmation from Realtek that the 24HZ setting is in fact 23.976 and it is shown as 24HZ in Setup GUI just for sake of simplicity of display.

Mede8er1
Source:
http://www.mede8erforum.com/index.php?topic=420.msg2299#msg2299


Realtek is lying!?!?  :-X


Offline tachita

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 10:35:35 PM »
Quote
After reading this it seems like the Mede8er HAS the SAME BUG like the other realtek players after all...

"BUG: 23,976 fps files are played back with 24.000 Hz instead of 23.976 Hz."
The result is 1 FRAMEDROP after every ~ 38 seconds of the movie.

review answer from mede8er1.

Offline Savini

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 04:07:31 AM »
I'm wondering: Do BD Players with 24p option playback at 23,976 or 24 Hz? And do TV sets with 24p option work with 24 or 23,976 Hz? After all I found some MKV Clips on the net that are 24Hz while most of them are 23,976 Hz.

Offline Savini

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 01:06:09 AM »
I'd like to bring this topic up again because it's really bothering me. I tried another Realtek player and had the same result. I did some further testing and can now say for sure:

- The movie hangs for 1 frame.

- This does not happen every 38 seconds like Monkeyface says but about every 41 or 42 seconds.

After I had found out about the 41 to 42 seconds by merely watching some movies and determining the time between 2 "hangs" I did my own calculation. Tell me what you think about it:

The player plays files with 24 fps instead of 23.976 fps when set to 24p output. This means that per second it plays 0.024 frames too many. This means that after 41.67 seconds (1:0.024=41.666...) it has played ONE frame too many and by freezing for the time of 1 frame (which means that you see the latest frame twice as long as you should see it) the player compensates for it. I don't understand why the player has to compensate and not keeps outputting 24fps instead of 23,976 fps (synch problem with audio?)  but meanwhile I'm pretty sure this is what happens. I tested the Medi8er as well as a Fantec player. Both are Realtek based. I tested both players with the 24p option on/off on 2 TV sets (both capable of 24p) and I tried 3 different Hard Disks. The result was the same: Picture feezes for one frame after every 41 to 42 seconds.

If this is really a Realtek chip problem that can't be solved by a firmeware upgrade, that would be a shame since apart from that problem the Mede8er is really great und reliable.

Monkeyface: Do you know of players with another chip that don't have this frame freezing problem?

Offline PhV

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 07:15:05 AM »
Hi Savini. You wrote that your screen is a Pana. Is it a 42PZ81 as for me (or something in ...81)?
Last year panasonic publish an update of the firmware. This update was to correct something about 24p. In France, we had a welle known forum about HD things, there was pages and pages about this issue on this serie of Pana screen. Some even wanted to sue panasonic (arguing their commercials were liying about playing 24p).
But since Pana publish the new fw all change... Nox everyone seems very happy. For my I can't tell because before doing update I haven't any HD source...
MED500X Fw 2.0.2 with HD WD Caviar 1To (5400RPM)
Mede8er networked (RJ45) direct to FreeBox (router & ADSL modem)
Home network (wifi): 4 PCs (XP, Vista 32bits, Seven 32bits/64bits) - Archos  5IT - Palm T|X
Plasma 32" Panasonic 32PZ81 -Audio thru HDMI to TV (decode to 2ch)

Offline mysticc

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 07:23:54 AM »
PhV is right.

It can be a tricky one to nail this issue down, as often the display (TV or beamer) is causing this stutters.
Smooth 24p still is an issue for many display-devices and not to be taken for granted.
V3.0 Beta
MED500X with internal HD 250G
100Mbit Networked with CAT5 to AVM Fritz 7220
Networkshare mainly on Win2003 Server, sometimes on Windows7 x64 Ultimate
Connected via Component to LCD and HDMI to projector.
AVR: Denon-3805
Projector: Sony HW-10
LCD: Viewpia 37
Blu-Ray-Player: LG BD 370

Offline Savini

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 12:54:55 PM »
No, it's definately not my display. I have two Plasmas: GW10 and V10. Both are capable of true 24p. When I watch Blu Rays on those displays they play absolutely smooth. Only when I use the Mede8er I have the frame freeze every 40 seconds. I searched the net and this is a common problem with other players as well lke the WD TV and the AC Ryan Play On. Seems to me that it is a Realtek thing that can't be fixed.

Offline Maasbommel

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 02:12:34 PM »
Savini,

Have you checked if there is a new firmware available for you Panasonic TVs as PhV suggested?

Quote
No, it's definately not my display. I have two Plasmas: GW10 and V10. Both are capable of true 24p.
You are pointing to Realtek chipset as the root cause of your problems but are only comparing with TVs from the same brand.

Have you tried with another brand regarding your issue?

If it is a Realtek "thing"  that cannot be fixed as you convinced mention, then there should be more users seeing the same with other brand TV sets. Or do I see this wrong, if so please correct my conclusion.

I don't have a Panasonic TV set to compare, but don't see it on my Samsung TV that is capable playing 24p.

regards,
Maasbommel
Read the  Mede8er 400X/500X Beginners Guide
or Mede8er 500X2/400X2/450X2 Beginners Guide

Also check the Couto X3D Newbies Guide first.

Please don't PM me but post on the forum.

Offline PhV

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 06:26:38 PM »
@mysticc & Maasbommel: If BR (I assume 24p) plays fine on Savini' screen, it's not a screen issue as I've written. Pana 24p issue was for all 24p sources.

During this afternoon I searched for 24p files in my Med500. There's something very strange, and mybe I'm missing something.
For me :
  • PAL video files are 25fps
  • NTSC video files are 29,97 (TV) or 23,976 (movie) fps. Most of US TV series I have are 23,976.
  • ...but I was waiting 24p as exactly 24 fps. It's weird... all my MKVs are 23,976125 (according to VLC on my PC).

Maybe I don't have any real 24p file (but it seems that 23,976 can mean 24p : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#23.976p).

By the way, where can I found 24p MKV sample(s)?

But, but, but.... If I don't have any real 24p file, why does my mede500 seems to switch to 24p when launching any 23,976 file (screen shutting off/on when auto 24p parameter is on and nothing appends when off).

Can you change frame rate display (when pressing "info")? Showing "23" is a bit poor, better could be showing 23,976, 25,000, 24,000... and so...
MED500X Fw 2.0.2 with HD WD Caviar 1To (5400RPM)
Mede8er networked (RJ45) direct to FreeBox (router & ADSL modem)
Home network (wifi): 4 PCs (XP, Vista 32bits, Seven 32bits/64bits) - Archos  5IT - Palm T|X
Plasma 32" Panasonic 32PZ81 -Audio thru HDMI to TV (decode to 2ch)

Offline mysticc

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 07:33:29 PM »
If it is a Realtek "thing"  that cannot be fixed as you convinced mention, then there should be more users seeing the same with other brand TV sets. Or do I see this wrong, if so please correct my conclusion.
Maasbommel

I think your conclusion is not valid as many many maybe even recognize this stutter about every 40 sec, but don`t care, others simply might don`t recognize it at all, although there.
So this might still be a Realtek-issue.

This framerate-stuff really is a pain in the ass, making my head go round.
Will have to do some more research and testing on my own.
23,976 and 24 are 2 different things, so Mede8er would need to handle it different, what is not the case, I am afraid.
They do 23,976 and simply show 24p.
What Mede8er is doing with real 24p? - Don`t know.

@PHV
As 23,976 is used as standard this explains why you don`t find plain 24p-mkvs.

After doing some more reading 23,976 is what is normally used for authoring of BRs ( due to NTSC downconverting needed in USA, Canada, japan)
So plain 24p is the exception.
Even when wrtten on BRs 24p this does not mean it is 24p, most probably it is 23,976

« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 07:50:55 PM by mysticc »
V3.0 Beta
MED500X with internal HD 250G
100Mbit Networked with CAT5 to AVM Fritz 7220
Networkshare mainly on Win2003 Server, sometimes on Windows7 x64 Ultimate
Connected via Component to LCD and HDMI to projector.
AVR: Denon-3805
Projector: Sony HW-10
LCD: Viewpia 37
Blu-Ray-Player: LG BD 370

Offline PhV

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 07:49:35 PM »
Look, I found a 24p file here : http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/high-definition-trailers.php
It's "Findng Puppy". VLC finds it having 48fps.

Plays totally bumpy at 50hz without 24p option. Plays quite well (but I saw better) with option enabled.
"Info" shows "24" as framerate.
I try to look for missing frame each 40 secs, but this kind of details could only be find on credits... and this video is too short.

But isn't 24p switch on NTSC file  (23,976) a bug on med500????
MED500X Fw 2.0.2 with HD WD Caviar 1To (5400RPM)
Mede8er networked (RJ45) direct to FreeBox (router & ADSL modem)
Home network (wifi): 4 PCs (XP, Vista 32bits, Seven 32bits/64bits) - Archos  5IT - Palm T|X
Plasma 32" Panasonic 32PZ81 -Audio thru HDMI to TV (decode to 2ch)

Offline Savini

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Re: 23.976 fps output not completely smooth
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 07:57:22 PM »
PHV: You get it all wrong. A true 24 fps file should play perfectly on the Mede8er. Mede8er only has problems with 23,976 fps since it plays them at 24fps and not 23,976 fps.

Most Blu Rays are 23,976 fps and all of the BDs I watched so far played perfectly on both my Panasonic TVs (the player was set to 24p and the TV switched to 24p when it got the signal). Both TV sets are from last year and have been discussed on many forums and reviews. They are both capable of 23,976 AND 24p.

There are Blu Rays with 24 fps but they are quite rare. Nevertheless I took one of them and converted the movie to an MKV file this afternoon. When I pressed the Info button, Mede8er told me 24 fps and not 23 fps like it does with 23,976 fps files. So I had a 24 fps file indeed.  And guess what? It played absolutly perfect! I then chose a 23,976 fps file and again I had the freezing frame every 40s.

Why doesn't everybody see this problem? Well, there are 2 reasons for that:

1) Many persons are just not sensitive to such problems with smooth playback. There are persons that don't see the constant (normal) judder that comes with every 24p playback. There are even some that don't see the 2:3 pulldown judder that comes with 60Hz playback of a BD. And the problem I discuss here only comes up every 40 seconds and can only be seen if there is "decent" movement at this time - if you have a person just talking in close-up, you don't see the frame freezing.

2) Some TVs offer something like IFC (Intelligent Frame creation) where the TV interpolates frames and adds them to make the movie run even more fluently. This feature makes the frame freezing invisible but I hate the look of it - everything looks like a video clip and not like a movie shot on film anymore. That's why I turn IFC Off on my Panasonics. I have seen Samsung TVs with something like IFC (they call it differently) and the picture was even more messed up: It had a kind of fake 3D effect to it - persons were moving in front of the background like it was a painted canvas. I guess they call this the Soap Effect.